Sen. Andy Kim (D-NJ) threw down with Federal Communications Commission Chair Brendan Carr (R) during a tense Senate Commerce Committee hearing on Wednesday. Earlier in the hearing, Carr said he did not believe the FCC is an independent agency, which led to the FCC quickly removing the traditional information from its website.
Kim began his questioning by picking up on that exchange, “Chairman Carr, I guess I just wanted to start with you. I was confused after hearing your response to one of my colleagues about the status of the FCC. I want to read you a quote here and see if you agree with it. ‘Congress long ago determined that the FCC is an independent expert agency.’ Is that correct or not?”
Carr replied, “Senator, there’s been sort of a sea change in sort of the law and the approach since I think I wrote that sentence, I’m assuming, since you gave it to me. You said it in front of Congress. The view has been that the Communications Act was passed in 1934, one year before Humphrey’s Executor. And so Congress did not include in the Communications Act for-cause removal of FCC commissioners. So I can be fired by the president for no reason or any reason at all. The theory had been that courts would read for-cause removal into the statute, and that was the basis for that viewpoint. I think now it’s clear that that’s not the case. And so, formally speaking, the FCC isn’t independent because we don’t have that key piece, which is for-cause-removal protection.”
Kim pressed, “So when you’re talking about all power vesting in the president, I mean, I just want to read this a little more, because you’re saying not just that it is an independent agency, but you’re saying that Congress did not want these technical decisions to be made in a haphazard manner or based on misinformation or short-term political interests. You specifically said it placed the authority outside of the executive branch for a reason. So you were not just stating what was the law at the time. You were stating the benefit that comes with the independence. So I guess I’m just trying to get a sense from you. If you don’t think that the FCC is independent, then is President Trump your boss?”
Carr replied, “President Trump has designated me as chairman of the FCC. I think it comes as no surprise that I’m aligned with President Trump on policy. I think that’s why he designated me as chairman, but ultimately–”
Kim interjected, “You consider him your boss?”
Carr replied, “Ultimately, the president designated me as chairman. I can be fired by the president. The president is the head of the executive branch. The decisions of the commission—”
Kim pressed again, “So he’s your boss.”
Carr hit back, “Look, the decisions of the commission are going to be based on a vote of the three of us right here. So there are some things that are different about that. And our decisions are based on the facts and the law. When the record— you swore an oath when you came into your job, right? Does the oath have the word “president” in it? Senator, again, I’m not tracking this line. What I’m saying is every decision—”
The two then sparred:
Kim: Do you remember—
Kim: Do you remember the oath that you took?
Carr: Yeah.
Kim: You swear an oath to protect what?
Carr: Sir, every single decision—
Kim: What is it that you’re protecting?
Carr: In this job—
Kim: The Constitution of the United States, look this is not a test here, I’m just trying to get a sense of how you’re trying to operate here. So I guess I’d just like to be a little bit more direct here. Have you ever had a conversation with the president or senior administration officials about using the FCC to go after critics?
Carr: Well, first of all, Senator, I don’t get into the specifics of conversations that I have—
Kim: Okay, well let me reframe it then. Would it be appropriate for the president or senior administration officials to give you direction to pressure media companies?
Carr: I’m not going to get into hypotheticals. What I can tell you again is decisions by the commission are—
Kim: Look the easy answer is, ‘No.’ It’s not a hypothetical. It’s literally just trying to determine whether or not you are understanding your job as belonging to the American people. Trump is not your boss. The American people are your boss.
The two then spoke over each other, before Kim added:
Let me finish my comment here, okay? The reason I raise this is because whether or not you had that conversation in the Oval Office or on a phone call, what we do know is we see it all out in front. On August 24th, Trump wrote, “ABC and NBC fake news. They are simply an arm of the Democratic Party and should, accordingly to many, have their licenses revoked by the FCC. I would be totally in favor of that because they are so biased and untruthful and an actual threat to our democracy.” So this is not hypothetical, like you said. He did intentionally try to pressure you and direct you to be able to use your power in the FCC against media companies that he thought were biased against him. So that’s why I just want to say this is not hypothetical. This is not theoretical. This is real. And I was trying to get a sense of whether or not you thought this behavior was appropriate or not. And your failure to directly delineate a line and show that there is integrity in this process concerns me, because before the FCC comes all of these decisions, all of the decisions. And when you cannot tell me directly that Trump is not your boss, that the American people are your boss, I do not trust that you can make these decisions with the independent mind that is needed and directed by Congress. And with that, I’ll yield back to him.
Watch the full exchange above via C-SPAN.
